Lee Marsh

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Posts by Lee Marsh

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  57

  Reading the Watchtower and Awake! is like getting a college education!

  by kairos in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody remember hearing this?.

  --.

  is that comment in print anywhere?.

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  Lee Marsh

  I learned far more in one semester (3 months) at college than I learned in 22 years as a JW.

  Almost anyone who actually did go to college or university or even a trade school will tell you the same.

  As opposed to one unnamed source
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  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

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  Lee Marsh

  which homes you would like to move into one these wicked people are destroyed
  

  Not too helpful with no power for fridge, stove, dishwasher, washing machine and dryer, microwave, toaster, air fryer, iron, TV, radio, computer lights as well as all the other things we have in our homes.

  No need for the car either no gas or even pumps to get it into the car. And even if you have an electric car... well that won't last too long.

  Sewing machine. Just how will they make clothes and sheets.

  We live in a world where most people cannot function without electricity. The learning curve will be very steep.

  I was there, waiting in 1975... patiently, faithfully... and nothing happened.... and nothing happened... and nothing happened.

  Oops it was a few misguided JWs. Yea Right. How convenient they can wipe the minds of gullible JWs. Over. and Over. and over again
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  43

  Research paper on Effects of Shunning

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  after being around this site for 21 years now, i've heard many recount their stories and feelings.

  many times i can immediately relate but other times they seem to have had a very different experience with the church.

  i'm sure that is because not only are all of us different in personality, but congregations and family dynamics vary as well.

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  Lee Marsh

  History 101:

  When Joe Rutherford illegally seized the presidency of the WTB&TS after Russell died he turned it into a dictatorship. He was an alcoholic narcissist. All the toxic beliefs he brought with him became the foundation for the myriad of rules for behavior that started the ball rolling. Since then the leadership has continued the narcissistic rule making and control that both he and Russell started. Russell was no choirboy when it came to controlling and manipulation people but Rutherford took it into the stratosphere. He vowed to create the largest publishing company on earth and he clearly made great headway with that

  According to

  1. Consolation, May 27, 1942, p. 6. It is not clear from this publication whether this included the distribution of Russell's earlier writings:

  He wrote twenty-one books and was credited by the Society in 1942 with the distribution of almost 400 million books and booklets
  

  Phenomenal for the time.

  But more importantly were all the controls he placed on people, the rules for behavior that had nothing to do with serving any god but rather served his agenda alone.

  In 1925, he gained full control over what doctrines would be taught in Watch Tower Society publications, overruling the refusal by the five-man Editorial Committee to publish his article, "Birth of the Nation",[85] which contained significant doctrinal changes.[86]

  Rutherford later claimed Satan had "tried to prevent the publication of that article ... but failed in that effort";[87] In 1927 the Watch Tower Society ceased printing of Russell's Studies in the Scriptures.[88] The Editorial Committee was dissolved in 1931, after which Rutherford wrote every leading article in The Watch Tower until his death.[89] The 1933 Watch Tower Society Yearbook observed that the demise of the Editorial Committee indicated "that the Lord himself is running his organization".[90]

  n 1928, Rutherford began to abolish the system of electing elders by congregational voting, dismissing them as "haughty" and "lazy", and finally asserting in 1932 that electing elders was unscriptural.[93][94] He impressed on elders the need to obey the Society's "regulations", "instructions" and "directions" without complaint.[95] Service directors, who reported back to Brooklyn, were appointed in each congregation and a weekly "service meeting" introduced to meeting programs.[96] In 1933 Rutherford claimed that abolishing elective elders was a fulfillment of the prophecy of 2300 days at Daniel 8:13–14, and that God's sanctuary (the Watch Tower Society) was thereby cleansed.[97]

  At a 1931 Bible Student assembly in Columbus, Ohio, Rutherford proposed a new name for the organization, Jehovah's witnesses, to differentiate them from the proliferation of other groups that followed Russell's teachings.[91] Bible Students who opposed or abandoned Rutherford to form new groups were increasingly described as the "evil servant class" by The Watchtower, which said it was wrong to pray for those who were "unfaithful".[98][99] Four years later the term "Kingdom Hall" was introduced for the local meeting place of congregations.[100]

  In 1937, the door-to-door preaching program was extended to formally include "back calls" on interested people and Witnesses were urged to start one-hour Bible studies in the homes of householders.[101][102] In the late 1930s, he advocated the use of "sound cars" and portable phonographs with which talks by Rutherford were played to passersby and householders.[101]

  In 1938, he introduced the term "theocracy" to describe the denomination's system of government, with Consolation explaining: "The Theocracy is at present administered by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, of which Judge Rutherford is the president and general manager."[103] "Zone servants" (now known as circuit overseers) were appointed to supervise congregations. In a Watchtower article Rutherford declared the need for congregations to "get in line" with the changed structure.[104][105]

  In 1927, Christmas was declared to be of pagan origin, and the following year its celebration by Bible Students was condemned as supporting "Satan's organization".[138][139] Mother's Day was condemned in 1931,[140] with other holidays as well as birthdays officially renounced in subsequent years.[141][142]

  Fellow Watch Tower Society director A. H. Macmillan says Rutherford "spoke as simply and directly to the people as he knew how, and he was an extremely forthright man. He was thoroughly convinced that what he had to say was the truth and that it was a matter of life and death."[167] Macmillan added, "He would never tolerate anything that would be contrary to what he clearly understood the Bible to teach. He was so strict about that, he would permit nothing that would seem to show a compromise when it came to an issue of the truth."[168]

  Other authors also address Rutherford's abrasiveness: James Penton describes him as blunt and moody with an explosive temper,[170] with "a streak of self-righteousness which caused him to regard anyone who opposed him as of the Devil",[171] while Alan Rogerson notes that he was a "dogmatic and insensitive person, obsessed with his own self-importance."[172]

  The Wikipedia page carefully cites quotes from a variety of sources to support these claims. The organization has become a clear representation of Rutherford's character and personality.

  ALL groups learn to take on a "personality" of those who lead. If the leaders are harsh the group will have rules that reflect that. if the leaders are loving the group will reflect that.

  Sadly, people often repeat what they know. Most of us realize that we need to learn new ways of dealing with the people in our lives after we leave the JWs or any toxic environment.

  
  

  As to why people join these groups: topic for another day.
  
  
  
  
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  10

  JW apologist

  by jhine in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  jehovah’s witnesses and sexual abuse: 3. some common misunderstandings.

  a chap called terrill hamons who l am taking to be a jw apologist on quora sent me this link along with many others .

  the sites are all about how misunderstood and unfairly treated the wt is .

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  Lee Marsh

  Or they get that "new light" that keeps them changing their minds about everything
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  38

  Which of you readers are being shunned by their relatives / friends ?

  by stan livedeath in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  a simple " me" if you dont want to say more--or a short explanation about who is shunning you and how long has this been going on.. i'll set the ball rolling: my daughter--her husband and children; my younger son --no contact from them for 40 years...because i left their religion.. (edit--i just noticed the typo in the header--if should be of ).

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  Lee Marsh

  Ozzie

  Hi Lee,

  When I first read this I thought “sheesh, how could they hate so long” but then I realised my own family shunning is 25+ years.

  So for me every relative, whether children, siblings or whatever share in this hate cult towards me.

  How sad for them that they are in bondage, i pray that they will eventually know true christian freedom.

  Cheers,

  Ozzie

  If they left I would welcome them with open arms. If I went back I would always be suspect and acceptance would be conditional. Not a good deal if you ask me.
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  38

  Which of you readers are being shunned by their relatives / friends ?

  by stan livedeath in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  a simple " me" if you dont want to say more--or a short explanation about who is shunning you and how long has this been going on.. i'll set the ball rolling: my daughter--her husband and children; my younger son --no contact from them for 40 years...because i left their religion.. (edit--i just noticed the typo in the header--if should be of ).

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  Lee Marsh

  Mother shuns me 37 years now as well as an uncle and his wife.

  My brothers who were never baptized and have not been in for decades 50+ years for 2 of them and 20 years for the third. My sister shunned me before she died. I think this is more due to my fractured family. It would have happened without the JWs but they made it worse.

  My ex YEAH I prefer it that way.

  All my JW friends and relatives.

  One of my daughters 10 years. She is out but refuses to tell me why she shuns me. - a practice learned when she was young and clearly still holds to.
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  61

  Why are so many Jehovah’s Witnesses Angry and Rude?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  why do you think many jws are hostile and rude?

  or is that just my imagination?.

  mark jones writes: the vast majority of jehovah’s witnesses are nice people.

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  Lee Marsh

  1. When leaders dehumanize a group of people, it can give you permission to treat them as if they are nothing.
  2. When you have lived your life faithfully and tried your best to be a "good" cult member and suppressed your own anger and resentments, then the dehumanized person can easily become the object of your anger. You project your feelings onto the other person. And you can even feel good about doing it because "those" people don't matter.
  3. Yes Jealousy. We have lived our lives free of the restrictions they have on their lives. You are free and you bet they are jealous even though they would never admit it. Even to themselves. People are often angry are those who get to do things they can't.
  4. Angry that we won't become true believers like them.
  5. Angry that we refuse to conform, especially if we knew each other. They see it as WE are putting the burden on them and not that they are putting it on us. This is typical narcissistic thinking. They are incapable of seeing the role they play in the shunning process and refuse to take responsibility for it.

  Probably a lot more but that is off the top of my head
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  68

  Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

  by LoveUniHateExams in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

  ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

  some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

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  Lee Marsh

  @ Sea Breeze

  Some of what you say if correct but others things no and some you probably never read about.

  I know this is a common and carefully crafted view about Russell. The facts show otherwise. The book below:

  https://archive.org/details/allaboutonerusse00cook
  

  was written only 2 years after Russell started printing the WT. It was written by his peers in the New York area.

  It shows that he:

  1. Had zero bible training what so ever Other than some studies he did with Adventists he had zero training.

  2. Was a clothing salesman for his father True

  3. Assumed the title Pastor without ever having pastored anyone. True - not an official title though

  4. Fostered and promoted the idea that he himself was named in scripture as the faithful and wise servant. Not sure about this one. Some references state that it was Bible Students that gave him that title.

  5. Was a shameless self-promoter and had no problem lying on stage. This one is true.And he was more than willing to teach colporteurs to lie to people at the door. In the 1916 convention there was a special meeting for colporteurs (pioneers). One asked Russell what they should say to a person at the door who asked if the "Millennial Dawn" Books were the same as "Studies in the Scriptures". Russell told him to tell the householder that the books were totally different and they should buy the new books. In reality the Millennial Dawn was a very simple update to the Studies series. She like they have always done - write a book, wait a couple of years, make a few edits, slap a new cover and title on it and resell it to unsuspecting Bible Students and the public. Pure money-making scheme. This episode is written in the 1916 Convention report.

  6. Went on a world-tour to investigate missionaries. This was exposed as a complete fraud. He then packed out the Hippodrome in NYC and denounced all missionaries in the most negative terms. Never heard this before so where did this info come from?

  7. Was divorced by his wife (she was known for having impeccable character & from a good family) for "inappropriate behavior".... like locking himself in the maids bedroom and not coming out for 10 minutes when his wife was knocking on the door. She accused him under oath of doing things like this to both of the women who lived in the Russell home. Yes Maria's impeccable character is one of the reasons he married her. He was a single man living in Bethel with single women. It looked unseemly. So Maria agreed to marry Russell to protect his character. Russell told her that he wanted to remain "pure" so that when he died he would meet his maker in a pure state so Maria married him knowing they would never have sex.

  Then Rose Ball, a young woman who was living at Bethel (about 22 years old and not a child as Russell claimed during the divorce) went to Maria and told her that Russell would make inappropriate advances to her even kissing her. He was found more than one in Rose's bedroom. He claimed he was tucking her in. Yea I don't believe that either. The info about this was researched by Leolaia on this site. Check The Best of .... Russell

  So Maria knew there was inappropriate behavior going on but in the divorce she said she did not think he had committed adultery. Maybe that is what she really thought since he wanted to be "pure" when he died. Or she didn't want to think that he would be with someone else when she was right there. We will never know.

  8. He set up multiple corporations to try and deny her the alimony he was ordered to pay. true
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  34

  1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today

  by enoughisenough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.

  i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.

  in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.

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  Lee Marsh

  They don't care about the age of majority. They just want numbers and slaves
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  19

  Who’s gonna mow your grass

  by solomon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xixc6aqrozq.

  what most jehovah’s witnesses don’t realize about their version of the new system is who’s gonna mow the grass?.

  after the system is destroyed who’s gonna make that nail your pounding with a hammer?

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  Lee Marsh

  No grocery stores. probably no electricity for your lights, stove, fridge, dishwasher, and washing machine and dryer. No microwaves or cell phones. No way to make roads or cars.

  I used to mention that to my JW friends when they were busy picking out their new mansions. They didn't want to listen to those things.

  Few knew how to make bread or preserves. Few knew how to grow vegetables.

  And what about those appliances they were so used to. Who was going to make them? Who knew how to grow grain and thresh it and turn it into flour?

  Who knew how to grow cotton or shear sheep and the process to make wool and turn the cotton or wool onto something that would make material? Who knew how to make clothes? By hand! No sewing machine or spindles or looms unless you made them yourself.

  And no internet to learn how to do any of those things

  As a Witness I made sure I knew a lot of those things. I was going to be ready.